If you smell something, say something.
Queens West remediation, Hunters Point, LIC
There seems to be some continuing issues with the toxic remediation of the remaining portion of the Queens West site at the Hunters Point waterfront. There’s been a growing number of complaints about petroleum-like odors emanating from the site and causing illness in the neighborhood. This week on Vernon Blvd, the fire department responded to suspected gas leak. None were found, and it was concluded that the callers had mistaken fumes from the nearby development sites (OCA as well) for the gas leak.
Joe Conley of CB2 and Paul Januszewski of Queens West Development Corp are requesting LIC residents to confirm the presence of odors/fumes emanating from the site, and/or any suspected related illnesses.
“We need email letters confirming that over the past several weeks (couple of months) you, the residents of LIC (especially near the waterfront), have experienced petroleum based odorous fumes in the neighborhood. But because a small handful of people have taken the time to complain, TRC, the private remediation company, has suggested we are “overly sensitive”. Your confirmation of what you may have experienced is important ASAP because the next phase of work needs the highest level of care. NYSDEC has declared it to be “a significant threat to human health and the environment”.
The petrol smell is pretty bad at times, the frequency of it occurring varies. Has anyone ever noticed the same smell in the area water supply? For some reason, now and then the water takes on a subtle but noticeable gas scent.
I feel I have noticed it in the water supply on rare occasion. It definitely is in the sewer system at times.
Last weekend it was all over the neighborhood. A couple of days ago it smelled like a gasoline truck spilled its delivery.
I work down the block from this site. The smell has been horrible for the last 2-3 weeks. I had headaches most of the earlier part of this week, and have felt nautious by quitting time. I have worked here full time for 5 years and nothing in the area has ever had this effect on me. I don’t know what exactly the odors are, but they have a definite physical effect. I have often considered making a complaint but I never knew who to speak to…. or if it would even matter. If either Joe or Paul wish to contact me directly they can feel free. My email address is my first name @ my last name dot com.
I have been getting migraines ever since the remediation began. Sore throat as well.
Not good.
Hey kc, when you say “gas”, are you referring to gasoline, or to natural gas (methane)? If it smeels like sulfur, then it might be a natural gas leak, from a small rupture in an underground pipe perhaps. Sulfur is added to methane, so we can tell when there is a gas leak, as methane is odorless and tasteless. Mixed in with the odor of whatever other compounds are being released, might explain the noxious effects. The sewer system is infamous for it’s release of foul smelling sulfurous compunds (sewer gas). If gasoline was spilled, it would smell very intense but disappear fairly rapidly, as volatile as the stuff is.
Hey everyone, complain away. Depending on what caused/is continuing to cause the noxious smells; it could be dealt with in a more timely manner. The NYS Dep’t of Enviornmental Protection is in the beige office building on 21st Street (or at least they used to be), up the hill from Jackson Avenue headed towards Hunters Point Avenue. Many people showing up at an office which almost never receives the public, might have a very positive and hopefully immediate effect (as far as action being taken goes). I haven’t been in that building in many years, since I last applied for a fishing license there.
Charlie
the entire neighborhood has stunk like gasoline the last week or so. you can smell it as soon as you get off the vernon jackson stop and it worsens as you head toward the remediation sites. not a sulfur smell, its a definite gas / oil smell.
thanks for posting this and hopefully it will be taken care of soon. i’ve given up on calling 311 after calling several times to report after-hours construction and demoliton. never got a response.
I hope I’m of some assistance with the suggestion. I hope it works. Also 311 just routes and passes information on to the appropriate dept./agency. I think that’s mainly what they do, from what I was once told by them. Try calling both the NYS Dept. of Enviornmental Protection and The New York City’s Enviornmental Protection Agency (I think it goes by that name). Call them directly.
If people are getting sick from the smell, then it might also fall under the jurisdiction of the Dept. of Health. Being that these compounds are/could be volatile, maybe the NYC Fire Department might get involved, especially if there’s a chance that a forgotten, and not yet identified underground storage tank of something potentially dangerous, might be leaking, due to corrosion and from jostling by the remediation.
Until proper identification and handling of the source(s) of the noxious fumes are acheived, then all possibilities, even remote ones, should be considered. Call, write to and/or visit the offices of these agencies.
Charlie.
I somehow missed the portion of this article which was in quotations and italics. Now that I’ve read it, in addition to what I’ve said, be sure to contact CB2 and QWDC with your concerns, observations and experiences.
Charlie.
People have been complaining off and on about odors from the remediation site for years now, so what good has this done? It seems obvious to me that stronger action, like threatening the DEC or the hired engineer with legal action, is the next recourse. It’s their legal responsibility to address the impacts of the work they have been tasked to do. If they can’t or won’t do it, then they need to be forced to do so.
I’ve lived here since the end of last year, and I have yet to smell any odors in the area. I am outside every single day, but I haven’t noticed anything out of the ordinary. Where are you people smelling this odor??
I definitely smell it when I walk by. Smells funkish.
Tara I was wondering the same thing. Not to try to minimize this - its definately concerning, but is it possible that some people do not have a sensitive nose enought to pick this up? It smells that same here as it always did.
@ tara & Anon:
I, too, hadn’t smelt the odor since the complaints began. However, recently I got a really good whiff of what this is all about - and it was BAD.
As all of us living here know, the wind tends to be quite strong, which I think is a major factor in this case. It wasn’t until I was taking a walk just NORTH of the site that I really smelt what people are complaining about - and believe me, you do NOT need to have a sensitive nose to smell it.
It’s more like really strong industrial glue than gas - although it’s similar to either I guess - and it makes you want to cover your face with your shirt. I was with three other people who all smelt it too.
It’s not always there - I guess it depends what they’re doing in that tent on any given day. But try walking around by the tents and by the softball/track field and, if it’s there that day, you’ll definitely smell it.
I’ve also been having very unusual migraines over the last week - but I really hope they’re not in any way related!
It’s also the beginning of ragweed season, which could be a cause of migraines, though I don’t know how much ragweed there is in LIC.
The primary area where it can be experienced is between 47thand 46th avenues and 5th and 11th streets.
Shh… you are totally ruining my property values. Everything is fine. I’m tryin’ to sell condos here!
Oh shut up 17. We are all residents and homeowners here. I’m glad this stuff is getting cleaned up. No one is interested in sweeping this under the rug. I just wish the gets done as quickly as possible and get a building on top of it to cap it. Let just remember this when so-called community groups advocate for less extensive remediation on our behalf. If you think the same stuff isn’t under the CUNY site I’ve got a bridge to sell you.
Shh… you are totally ruining my property values. Everything is fine. I’m tryin’ to sell condos here!
Have fun breathing that in.Greenpoint and LIC have the biggest rates of brain and kidney cancer from the Newtown creek and chemical plants as well as exposed sewer gas.
Has anyone called Jennifer Manley, Queens Director of the Mayor’s Community Affairs Unit? As an LIC resident, I am sure she’ll be very concerned.
#18 is hijacking a serious problem to push a well worn agenda. Fact is that all the other developers who have capped and built on slab have had full approval of all government cleanup programs without exposing the neighborhood to toxic fumes.
The present remediation has had two concurrent stories - they tell the taxpayers that they must clean up the terrible scary toxic soil and in the same gaseous breath tell us not to worry about what we are breathing - it’s safe.
18, I’m guessing you are the same person who keeps pushing an anti-community agenda here under the guise of concern for the environment. In reality your real concern is to push the idea that we must build-build-build-build-build. Your statements are always sly innuendo, attack on the community’s motives, and rarely based in fact. Sounds remarkably like the developer’s attorney.
#20, can you provide us with the source for what you state, or post a link? I’d like to read up on that info. I knew a lifetime Hunters Point resident who died from brain cancer.
Charlie.
around the water…yes. Gas, headaches, toxic dust.
But, on a related note, can anyone tel me why the court square area smells like delicious butter cookies?
Just a small correction - it’s NOT sulfer they add to natural gas, but one of the Mercaptins (ethyl or methyl), although I will admit they sometimes use a sulfide
You are correct kg2u (#25). It is not sulfur per se, which is added to the gases methane, propane, butane, etc. It is sulfur containing compounds they use, such as ethanethiol; which happens to be considered one of the “stinkiest” of compounds. These compounds can be detected by the human olfactory system in extremely small amounts, so very little needs to be used to be effective, as they all are toxic in large enough doses. Because so little is used, even huge gas leaks pose no problem with toxicity. Methane (CH4, which is the most simple and lightest of organic compounds) by itself is completely odorless and non-toxic, but will easily displace oxygen and cause asphyxiation. This is the main reason why these compounds are added to natural gas, in addition to it’s explosive nature. Quick detection is paramount to human, animal, and property safety.
I figured I’d just say sulfur, and forego any explanations, like the one here. Most people wouldn’t care, and really don’t need to, as the system works flawlessly.
Well, thanks for keeping me on my toes anyway.
Charlie.
The gasoline-like smell was not the rotten egg smell I associate with sulfur. It was more that penetrating petrol smell you get at the gas pump. The other fumes that are very common is a sort of earthy smell combined with the petroleum. I understand that the remediation also adds a leafy smell to help mask it. So it is sort of a mix of gasoline, swamp soil, and chloroseptic.
What we don’t smell are fumes such as benzene which were verified to have spread through the neighborhood the previous stage of remediation. I’m not sure if that is the case now but in general I’m told that the fact that you can smell something means that something is entering your system.
I work right in the area and I’ve never found the smell to be any more than a slight annoyance. As someone else noted, I’d be more concerned about toxic things in the air that cannot be smelled. But DEC has been working closely monitoring this and I’ve got to imagine they are doing their jobs. Aren”t they?
I would hope they are.
Charlie.
I work in the area and get a whiff of oily smell from time to time, but nothing that bothers me physically. They are removing a tremendous amount of contaminated soil from the site and I don’t think the job can be done without some odors escaping. I think that it is in the interest of the community to get the site cleaned up ASAP without creating impossible burdens to doing this work.
#24, the area near Court Square smells so delicious due to International Delights and other bakeries nearby. No headaches, just tummy grumbles.
#27 is right. It’s not a sulfur smell, it’s gas. When you get closer to the sites, it smells like gas/oil. Old stale yucky oil smell. like you’re at a refinery. I am wondering now about the stuff we can’t smell.
30, who is creating “impossible burdens” to enabling the site cleanup? If anything, everyone in the neighborhood has given the DEC and the site cleanup crew support to do the job right and with all appropriate haste. Raising concerns about the stink on the site and if they are doing the job as well as they could certainly does not qualify as a “burden.”
Don’t also overlook the contribution of Newtown Creek to the miasma of stench in LIC. There is more oil oozing into the creek than the equivalent of 3 Exxon Valdezes, and the sewage treatment plant adds a veritable cocktail of funk into the mix.
Sorry for the short notice. NY1 will be at the site (47th ave & 5th st) at 11:30 and would like to interview anyone who wants to weigh in.
Why do I have visions of new condo owners and developers wishing this thread would just go away?
Of course they don’t want this talked about. But in the end it’s not really going to hurt anyone anyway, because talking about it keeps people safe, and I’m assuming the safety of people is worth a few $/sf.
I’m closing on a new condo next month. Keep talking about it. The sqeaking wheel get the oil. I want it resolved as quickly as possible. #30 is right. Let them finish whatever they are doing as quickly as possible.
There is an industrial bakery near the court square area if I am not mistaken.
why would the condo developers hide this? It’s not their fault the toxicity is there. It’s a known fact stated in their prospectus that the site is a Brownfield and undergoing remediation. QW bungled the remediation on the first few sites, the absolute first being the most atrocious…basically they had no idea what they were doing. One could only hope they’ve figured it out by their fourth building… and it remains to be determined if they have or not. I don’t see any way to avoid smelling 100+ year old polluted oil being excavated from the ground. Though they are supposed to be buffering the smell. I walked down there today and smelled some fumes… mostly from the dorm site though. but it’s hard t0 tell.
#37 trust me, our safety is not the developer’s concern.
Just curious, but does anyone know of case studies of other similarly contaminated sites that were remediated and redeveloped with residential uses? Is this something that has been done regularly and successfully in the past or is this basically just a new concept with unproven results?
Contaminated sites are remediated and redeveloped for residential use all the time. It can be done safely if done properly and happens quite frequently. this is not a new concept.
43, It’s not exactly true that we know that this type of excavation can be done safely. For example, the monitoring has been ineffective. If you look at the logs online for the past months, there is barely a mention of any odors by the low wage monitors. Maybe one or two mentions per hundred hours even on the worst days. The State Department of Health has no data whatsoever on the effects because no study has been done. And incredible as it seems the NYS DEC doesn’t even have authority to step in as it is a so-called voluntary clean up.
I’m all for a fast clean up but one gets the sense that the present health of the community is possibly at risk in the name of future profitability from development.
I agree with 44. The whole concept of making a heavily polluted industrial site livable strikes me as dubious. Sure, you can clean up the soil at a gasoline station, but that QW site housed a Standard Oil refinery. Are we just being naive or is the science advanced enough to make that site as safe as any other site that never had such a use?
44, 45 the question was “Is this something that has been done regularly and successfully in the past or is this basically just a new concept with unproven results?” My answer stands. Its not new and LIC is not the first place where this is being done. All over the country and around he world brownfield sites are being reclaimed and redeveloped. This is a big trend as major cities very often was home to heavy industry. With gobalization the need for and profitabilty of manufacturing in cities like London and NY has decline. Many cities are trying to reclaim this land and return it to productive use. If you want to know more about the subject do some research on it. I am not aware of any long term studies which would be needed to answer the questions which you are raising, but this is not so new that it is impossible to say that it can be done safely and has been done safely.
So basically we have to trust DEC and the engineers that remediation can be done safely. But there isn’t any conclusive evidence or long-term data that proves the site will be safe.
If I had the choice, I think I would live on a site that never housed such dangerous uses. There are plenty of these locations in LIC.
yeah, but they’re not on the waterfront and ego is a dominating force in NYC… that and greed. (also art and stuff too though, don’t get me wrong)
That not what I said. I said this is not a new practice therefore it should be possible to say that it can be done safely and has been done safely. I am not aware of any long term studies that have been done, but that fact is not surprising since I have done no research on the issue. If you are concerned I suggest you hit the local library and see what you can find.
Standard Oil did not have a refinery on QW land. You may be thinking of the Newtown Creek mess.
I just saw the ny1 piece on this. What a gross distortion of the facts - “like putting your head in a bucket of gasoline” - give me a break! I walk by there every day and rarely smell a thing. I guess some people will say anything to get on tv.
you must have your head stuck in the wrong place then! it stinks over there. i would agree with that analogy.
50, not true. The Pepsi bottling plant was once a Standard Oil refinery.
No. 51, if you’re going to make accusations of gross distortion of facts, you should make sure you get your own facts straight. You misquoted the guy. Here’s what he actually said: “It literally smells as if someone walked up to me with a pail of gasoline and asked me to stick my head in it.”
#54, were you always this anal?
Yes, it was a Standard Oil refinery before the Pepsi plant was built on top of it. Years ago, a retired Pepsi employee told me that the most toxic soil in the QW development would probably be found on the Pepsi site.
The <NY1 video about the smell.
56, My dad once told me that when he and his friends used to play on the waterfront in the 1930s, there was a large, noxious pool of waste oil on the refinery site. That must be one of the sources of contamination being dealt with today.
46, I did do my research and have spoken with two nationally known experts. To be clear, I am not suggesting the site should not be cleaned. Nonetheless it is not good policy to sicken people while doing the clean ip.
The very simple point is that the measures to protect the community were not adequate. The reason I know this is because after weeks of complaints they finally did something that now seems to be working. This is after being stone walled and told “what smell?” “Maybe it’s the graffiti on the wall I’m smelling” and other lame comments. The way they are monitoring and how they are handling reports from the community has not been what it could be. It should not have taken so much effort to get some relatively minor changes in place.
I hope the present measures are adequate.
#51, it is not a distortion. There have been numerous reports via email, phone, and here to that effect. I’m glad it seems to be better this week.
By the way, the reporter herself nearly dropped her camera when she was hit by a pocket of fume during the filming. I think up to that point she was a bit skeptical. If you go back and watch the piece you’ll see she makes the comment to the effect that “the smell was definitely there today.”
46, The long term study would be simple to implement right now because there will be a lull between this remediation and the next. Perfect situation for a controlled sampling. Canvas the neighborhood and accumulate data on any changes in minor or major health issues - i.e. sore throat, dizziness, etc. It would be a starting point.
Yikes! Only problem is the smell wasn’t there yesterday. But then there wouldn’t be anything to report on tv and they came all the way down there for the story…. So let’s all say that it really smells (like gasoline no less - even though the site isn’t polluted with gasoline) and make yucky faces at the camera.
Charlie, the smell I have experienced from the water is similar to the outside. The scent resembles petrol/natural gas with an earthy base. I actually said something about the water a while back and I was ignored. If the water supply is in any contact with such pollutants then thats a pretty big issue. Especially when there are campaigns going on promoting the consumption of tap water. Growing up in NY we have always had good (tasting) water in NYC but with all the old pipe infrastructure you never know.
A quick way to remedy this is via a home based water analysis. I bet you could build a small product of this nature and make it available to the consumer market. This would make water testing accessible to most people so we don’t have to trust everything we read and hear. Have the device interface digitally so data can be shared online creating a world user database of water supply quality.
As for the outside, the smell is greatest when the air isn’t stirring as much. It is indeed stronger as you approach the remediation site. Head over to the football pitch if you are curious.
With AIG backing the project it’s obvious the parties involved with all the cleanup and development are well protected. This of course means there IS a problem and these entities are covering their backs (always good business to do so). Beyond this I too hope they can get cleaned up as soon as possible but they should be taking every precaution they can to protect those in the surrounding area.
One big problem I have with all this that could be solved easily is the covering of the dump trucks hauling the dirt out. Whenever I see them they never have the canvas/black netting material over on their tops. In fact all the trucks I saw didn’t even have the distinctive roller above the cabin that either auto-covers the bay or can be simply pulled over and latched. Surely this can be done at the very least? =\
And #51 it was a Standard Oil site, I have old industrial maps that show a bit of the business that has gone on here. Also, If you look to industrial rev photo archives you can see how crazy it was over here when all the smoke stacks were going strong. Back then I am sure it was amazing just to have things of this nature up and running. Now we have advanced well beyond these days but there are always bound to be left overs.
As people have stated, hopefully it is cleaned up quickly but safely. I don’t mind a couple more months for a cleaner process. There is always a better way to do things and if it was my trade I would force something more efficient…probably make a killing yeah?
Why am I not suprised by who appears in this video?
64, Why am I not surprised that any time someone stands up for an issue of importance there is someone like you ready to tear them down as if they have some kind of evil motive? I suppose the NY1 reporter who remarked about the fumes is part of the liberal media conspiracy.
Why can’t you just be open about your agenda and show enough integrity to make a reasonably intelligent argument for your point or against mine? Why instead do you resort to a subtle and sometimes not so subtle form of personal attack? And why on earth are you attacking people who have finally succeeded in getting the remediation company to try to plug a variety of admitted loopholes?
Do you really think I have wanted to spend my time on this crap? I am happy that there are finally some results. If you haven’t experienced the fumes, you are among the fortunate ones. I hope that if there is a point where if it does occur again and you happen to get a powerful whiff, you will be honest enough to report back here that you may have been mistaken.
#65, sorry - Many thanks to the “Long Island City Community” for taking leadership on this position. You always represent us well. When is the next meeting?
I think our next target should be all the car shops in the area. Every time I walk by I get hit by pockets of fumes. And how about that garbage company on 5th Street - I nearly drop my camera every time I walk past that place. And how about that bakery - think about what those smells do to sap the will of dieters across the community. We have only scratched the surface of things we can find to complain about.
66, here we go again. You have a real fixation on that LIC Community label that has already been explained to you on this blog at least 3 or 4 times. Get off it. None of the non-politicians in this ad hoc gathering ever presented themselves as representing the community. I should point out that the politicians who were there do play a role in representing the community. But apparently just the act of making any noise that might upset the sacred cause of development gets you all worked up.
Why don’t you call a news conference to report your special knowledge that this is all a fake?
67, how about the delightful aroma of a blog brat unwilling to become involved with anything beneficial to the neighborhood but with tons of time to snipe at anyone who raises a valid concern.
The smell has never bothered me. But if there are others out there who are bothered by the smells and they are also not known to be opponents of development, they should get out there and make their voices heard. Otherwise people will just assume the anti-development crowd is exaggerating things as just another front in anti-development fight.
I have the great distinction of being both pro-development and anti toxic debris. Having both a young child and a business in this community puts me on both sides of the issue. I want thousands of new residents here to spend money, but I also want my child to grow up without stomach cancer or respiratory problems. These sites have yet to be properly monitored, it seems to be that the developers get away with “murder” until NY1 is called in; remember the Avalon? There should be some happy medium between concerned residents, new residents, home owners concerned with their property values and the general community. There is no way that this kind of reckless digging would be allowed in Chelsea, Tribeca or any other NYC neighborhood other than the Bronx.
70, 71 Thank you for bringing intelligence and sensitivity back to this thread. When the discussion gets hot headed and polarized, the community loses.
Additionally, the idea of “anti-development”versus “pro-development” is a stereotype that diverts the discussion from substance. And it is often a false label. This is the same as the “either you are with us or against us” mentality that allows no room for diverse thinking and creative growth. There are many people who favor growth and at the same time want to preserve a quality of life and health. That should be a community wide concern - not a battle ground.
I just don’t understand the motivation of those who want to shout this discussion down. Even this site’s host, who takes in development and real estate dollars and has testified in favor of the OCA variance, is on the side of this issue.
No offense #72, but you have to have your head pretty far in the sand not to acknowledge that there is a segment of the community that jumps pretty quick to oppose development (or any change for that matter). There is a dang good article on the subject here.
http://www.planetizen.com/node/34505
I think the articel is spot on (every public meeting here starts with people complaining about lack of notice). The article also points out that the NIMBY crowd provides a useful function.
I don’t pretend to have any other idea about what can be done on the Pepsi site but attempt to clean it up and cope with all the odors and other annoyances likely to result from such an undertaking. Still, I just think it is the height of hubris to believe that a heavily contaminated site of an oil refinery can be made perfectly safe for residential use, regardless of whether dump trucks are covered, foam is sprayed, and whatever other window dressing is applied to mask the hazards being unearthed there. I know life in NYC demands we have to live in denial about many things, but this is just plain stupid. The same people who only buy organic produce, wash their clothes with Seventh Generation liquid, and pack antibacterial wipes in their kids’ lunch boxes will likely move into a place that could pose much graver dangers to their health than the petty things most people obsess about. The lengths people will go to fool themselves just strikes me as very strange.
71 you reveal your true colors or (or lack of knowledge) when you refer to the cleanup as “reckless digging.” There is nothing reckless about it. The cleanup is being closely monitored by the State DEC under a plan that was developed with them. Queens West has a highly respected environmental engineer overseeing the project who visits the site on a regular basis (in addition to DEC personnel) to make sure work is being done according to the plan. The plan itself calls for enclosed tents over the areas being excavated and all trucks are washed down before leaving the facility. The streets are washed down regularly as well. The fact of the matter is that there is very little by way of noxious odors emanating from the site. So how can you refer to this process as reckless? Do you know a better way to do it? I for one would like to see the place cleaned up (as is being done) so that the long promised waterfront parks that are planned can come to fruition. Ultimately it is the taxpayers who are paying for this through the brownfield program and i would like to see our money spent wisely. You smell less walking past this site than you do passing a neighborhood dry cleaning shop, car repair place or gas station.
Just curious, No. 75, do you think global warming is a farce? The earth is flat? Evolution is make believe?
74 i don’t understand how cleaning up this site is the height of hubris. There is oil in the dirt, which is being removed from the site and replaced with clean soil. What would you rather do - fence off the area and leave it polluted forever? How does oil five or six feet underground make the land above unsafe for habitation? Particularly for someone living in a highrise apartment with a thick pad of concrete separating them from any possible contamination? If you really feel that way then you should move out of LIC (if you live here) because there is oil and other contamination under the ground throughout this area. Queens West is probably the safest place to live around here.
Not at all 76. I believe in science and the competence of the environmental engineers who are monitoring the clean up of this site. I also believe in my own nose and know that this issue is being created by a bunch of neighborhood gadflies and politicians with nothing better to do than create a stink where none exists. I also support Barak Obama. Sorry i don’t fit your expectations.
Do you believe the neighborhood is perfect the way it is and nothing should ever change? Do you believe it is a bad thing to clean up polluted sites?
77, if you read what I wrote more closely, you’ll see that I said cleaning up the site is probably the only option available. But regardless of what happens at the site, I still believe that it will never be a safe, healthy place to live and disturbing the site is probably doing a whole lot of damage to everyone’s health. That’s all. We have all been trained to believe everything “experts” tell us. Sometimes, if it smells bad (no pun), it probably is.
#74 you sound very certain that the method that is being used to clean up the sites do not work in the short term and the long term. I myself am not sure if they do work but wanted to know if you have studies that show that this type of remediation is not effective.
I attended a conference sponsored by ULI (Urban Land Institute), which is a respected land use organization, on the Queenswest development. They described how Avalon had dug 30′ of contaminated dirt, than caped it with a barrier and replaced it with clean dirt in AR II. I am not sure if there is much more that could be done other than leaving the site untouched and undeveloped. Is there other technology that is not being used that should be?
80, I don’t pretend to have any answers. I’m just viewing this through a skeptical lens of an Average Joe and have concluded (maybe quite wrongly) that there’s no way to guarantee that residents and workers are not going to be harmed during (and after) this work is done. This is a refinery we’re talking about here, not just some old parking lot with a couple of spilled cans of motor oil. If developers really wanted to ensure safe re-use of the site, why not just leave the site alone, pour a thick layer of concrete over the entire site, add piles of clean dirt on top, and make the whole thing into a park? Surely that would add to the viability and attractiveness of LIC as a developing neighborhood more than another tower.
81, your true colors have been revealed. I will come back to you later.
I am 64, and I will respond to the attacks levied against me. First let me say that I think it is proper and appropriate to ask questions and take steps to ensure that this is done as quickly and as safely as possible. However, one must also ask what the motivations are of those that are in front of the complaints regarding the clean-up efforts. People should know that those being interviewed in front of cameras have a decade plus long track record (public record) of opposing and complaining about Citylights, Queens West, Gantry Park, the strip park on 48th, Blend, bike lanes, CUNY, etc. etc. Anything that would improve the area, make it more livable or gentrify it is met with strong opposition from this core group of malcontents. The plays from their play book have been honed to the point of perfection. Rarely is there a direct frontal attack. Sure go ahead and open a restaurant– I’m pro-development, but sorry I oppose your liquor license as there are too many bars in a 500 ft radius. Or yes I’m in favor of CUNY and QCA and the environmental remediation, oh but wait no zoning variances for you to make this possible. They speak out of both sides of their mouth and pay lip service to development, but the real agenda is to stymie any activity that causes any further changes in LIC. These guys play fast and loose with the facts using hyperbole and half truths to make their points. Their record on this goes back to the early 90’s. So when some one gets on TV and says “It literally smells as if someone walked up to me with a pail of gasoline and asked me to stick my head in it.” I roll my eyes and see more of the same. That’s why I’m not surprised. Does all of LIC really smell like your head is immersed in gasoline? Don’t you think that is a bit of an exaggeration? If it did smell that strong wouldn’t we all be dead in the streets from poisoning? This clean-up should not be used to advance anyone’s anti-development agenda. Again I applaud the efforts of anyone who has brought this to attention of the public and is taking steps to mitigate the results, but I can’t help but ask the question - To what end is this being done?
Coming back to you #81, your recommendation all sounds strangely familiar – ah yes the CUNY site where the LICC is promoting the same quick and dirty fix. Let’s be clear on this point: Where there is environmental problems I am in favor of rooting them out in the most aggressive fashion. This should be pursued in as diligent, but as expeditious manner as possible. Any remediation plan will involved some stirring up of toxity, but better it be done over a few month period than linger in the topsoil where people are exposed to it for many years. Every effort should be made and no expense spared in protecting the community while this takes place. While no approach is 100% the one described seems infinitely better than pretending it is not there and putting a park over it where children will come into direct contact with it. That’s just stupid.
82. Forgive me, but you sound just a tad paranoid. I have nothing to do with LICC or any other agenda, track record, pro or anti (and I’m not voting for either Obama or McCain).
I just offered my humble opinion (in 81 and 74) that maybe it isn’t such a great idea to stir up an old refinery and stick a building on top of it. That doesn’t seem like an especially explosive position to take.
I’ve sent my emails. Has anyone else?
82, you are so caught up in attacking people based solely on personal opinion that you are mixing up people who are posting here and acting as if they are one and the same. You also seem particularly intent on attacking some people who have taken the liberty to speak their views. Anonymously calling them liars is really not fair.
Since you seem sure about who some of these people are, why don’t speak directly with them? Have you ever directly talked at length with the people you are attacking here? So how do you know who any of us are or what we think? From an edited sound bite?
Can you possibly examine the idea that you might be mistaken about some of your opinions about people?
82 is unaware that many of the improvements he or she is appreciating today are because local folks fought bad proposals until they got better. The strip park is an example of where the community was not listened to. The Gantry park is an example of where the community was listened to.
As someone who has complained about the odors I was also the first to publicly compliment the remediator on finally controlling the fumes. But the new measures were only put into place as a result of people hammering away.
82 obviously was not in the immediate area the week of 8/25 where there were intense gasoline-like fumes. If you speak to the roving monitor he can confirm this.
Right on, 86. Every advance, reform, and improvement that has ever been made in the history of this country was the result of people first opening their mouths and complaining loudly.
#82 - you seem to have a lot of opinions. could you then explain to us why the area surrounding the remediation tents has stunk of gasoline and oil and why the public shouldn’t be concerned about this?
Anyone else see this?
“Mayor of Long Island City” killed on Crescent Street:
http://gothamist.com/2008/09/04/punch_to_the_face_kills_queens_man.php
88, please reread my post before asking that. In there I said clearly that it is proper and appropriate to ask questions and take steps to ensure that this is done as quickly and as safely as possible. I am only questioning the motivations of those that are in front of the complaints regarding the clean-up efforts and to what ends are their complaints directed? Why attack me for asking the tough questions? I believe that is a completely resonable inquiry.
88 here:
I don’t have the time or energy to go point by point through your post (and I’m new to the neighborhood, not an “old-timer”, before you start to make more assumptions). You wrote about the people interviewed for NY1:
“Anything that would improve the area, make it more livable or gentrify it is met with strong opposition from this core group of malcontents”. !!!! They’re trying to draw attention to the toxic smell and you make this statement? They are trying to make it MORE liveable! So your statements are not even remotely reasonable. This is the reason that development must be met with some opposition. These developers will try to get away with anything and at any cost. We all breathe the same air and I’m sure nobody prefers to get cancer from it.
“There are many people who favor growth and at the same time want to preserve a quality of life”
What does that mean specifically? Seriously all jokes aside. People throw out that statement all the time and I’m not sure what it means. Is it possible to do both? What type of growth is bad because it affects quality of life vs growth which is good? Inquiring minds want to know.
92, yes - if I can assume you are also 82 this is finally a reasonably stated question without the sarcasm, innuendo, and personal attack. If you are also 90, maybe I’m reading it wrong but I feel there is a suspicious angry bent that was very apparent in prior posts.
Since I used the phrase “preserve quality of life” I’ll agree it’s difficult to directly define but you would have to agree that it is equally difficult to always know how a project will impact the community for better or worse. If we were a more coherent community perhaps we could as a group find the balance of views I am trying to describe.
But getting back to this idea of questioning the motivations, you seem to be constantly implying that they are either self-serving or rigidly backward looking or just protesting for the sake of protesting. I honestly don’t see what the gain would be. Perhaps you could explain. As for backward looking, I could try to parade my credentials as to local development projects I have had a proactive hand in but I would rather do that face to face. And protesting for protesting is just not something any of us have time for in this economy. I don’t know about you but I have a lot on my plate and taking the time to try to find out why my block smelled of fumes was not fun. But the very fact that the fumes are not here for the past few days shows that we have had a positive impact where we were being stone walled before.
92 and 82, the only way your arguments would have even the slightest dint of logical credibility is if the people who complained about the gas smell were also working behind the scenes to stop the construction of the tower on that site (which, of course, isn’t the case). And even then, this would mean we have to accept your specious claims that there is no gas smell, when hundreds of other people have been hacking in the street and the contractors themselves acknowledge the odor problem. So who does a reasonably open-minded person believe — you, who seems to support the actions of developers no matter what the consequences, or them?
It seems to me that we have to accept that the odor-complainers are just concerned neighbors — people who you should find common ground with on this issue and others for the good of the neighborhood — who want to hold the engineers and the state to the construction remediation standards they themselves agreed to. That’s the pact all of us have made with the developers in LIC, and it seems more than fair to complain if they break it.
93, I asked because everyone says that they are not backwards and that they are for progress, however its very easy to say that. Perhaps if I can rephrase the question maybe you would have a easier time answering it. There has been a lot of development in LIC in the past decade. Which development stands out in your mind as a project that did not infringe on the “quality of life” in LIC?
94, that is exactly the point! The people who complained about the gas smell were also the exact same people working behind the scenes to stop the construction of the tower on the CUNY site. They are also the same people who have worked against the Queens West development since day one. So while the QW tower is not being directly questioned here it is not necessarily unusual that it is not. #73 posted a link to a great article about the MO of these neighborhood groups. If you have the time read it. If you have any familiarity with the history of the area when you read it would sound like it was written specifically about LIC. It is standard practice to dismantle every facet of a contested project in any way possible which is why I feel that my questions is relevant to the discussion here. How do you or I know when there is a legitimate issue vs. a small issue that is being blown out of proportion for political gain? This is the story of the boy who cried wolf too many times. When you are against almost every new development, it become hard to tell when there is a real problem or when it is more posturing.
This issue has nothing to do with anti development. The toxicity on this particular site is of great concern to both new comers on the waterfront as well as long time residents. Remember, the Pepsi Plant was built on top of an oil refinery back in the day when buildings went up on sites with little regard as to what lay beneath their development. The NY1 visit to the site was a last minute decision; therefore, there was no way the entire community could have been alerted to show up in great numbers. BTW there is an article in today’s Daily News re: Assembly Woman Cathy Nolan’s recommendation to the DEC.
#95, it’s coincidence that the opposition to CUNY are the same people who pioneered the call to investigate the harmful smell on the community. They are mutually exclusive situations, and though they may seem like an anti-development group, they really are pro-community. I think they (and it would be great if they had a name that was agreed upon and not the LIC Community) function as community watchdogs, and even though we might not agree with all of their agendas, their fundamental concern is for the people of the neighborhood. And, I am not a part of their group and I am concerned about the toxic situation being discussed her. It’s a community matter, what difference does it make who is bringing up the issue? It’s a real issue.
Instead of calling them “the community”, how about using one of the acronyms from the article #73 posted and call them the CAVE people. Just kidding.
Oh why won’t LIQCity post some new stuff so we could at lease move this feud to a new thread.
95, I give up. How can anyone have a reasoned debate with you? You must drive your friends, family, and colleagues up a wall. You remind me of a certain highly unpopular national figure who refuses to let stubborn things like facts, rational thought, and objectivity get in the way of his blinkered thinking.
How do you know this has nothing to do with anti-development? I’m not so sure. Please help me get to where you are. No one is questioning whether this is an issue. What is being questioned is motivation. You may be content being potentialy manipulated into supporting a cause you don’t believe in, but I am not. I like to ask questions before throwing my support behind something.
99, (I assume also 93) I am just trying to understand. Please answer my question. Maybe you and I are not so different after there is an understanding of sorts.
There has been a lot of development in LIC in the past decade. Which development stands out in your mind as an example of a project that did not infringe on the “quality of life” in LIC?
#101 - I am #96 - Why do you “assume” that I am being “manipulated” into anything? Remember - to “assume” is to make an a$$ out of you and me. I stand by my statement. This issue is not about anti development, and I think that you are trying to turn it into one!
102, I’m 93 but not 99. Hmmm, where to begin? It’s easy to make a blanket statement that these are the same people who opposed this and that and therefore…. Therefore what?
If for example we questioned why the original plan had minimal to zero waterfront access, did that make us anti-development? If people are asking where is the promised library, does that make us anti-development?
In the case of O’Connor Associates there is a generally welcome lower rise CUNY dorm but it is attached to a luxury tower that breaches zoning and requires several other variances to change light, air, and even fire department access. Some of us have simply asked the Board of Standards that if they are going to give extra benefit please make sure that the hardship from the remediation is real.
I would point out that it was only at the most recent hearing that OCA admitted that they will benefit from Brownfield funds. Prior to that they claimed the program barely existed and that no one other than “a lone farmer upstate” had ever received Brownfield funds. So who would have been “potentially manipulated” in this instance?
Motivation? I do wish the direction of the neighborhood was not to look at Manhattan but at the same time I am realistic. It does not mean I can’t ask questions like how is everyone going to fit on the #7.
I like your statement: “Maybe you and I are not so different after there is an understanding of sorts.” I suspect this may be true. And where we disagree, what’s wrong with trying to respect where we are coming from?
I suggest that 104 invites that other plonker out for a beer tonight and report back to us. You’ll either find common ground or mash each other in the face.
105, unfortunately the one place where this would have been best just closed.
104, again that’s all very nice, and I appreciate your response, but I can’t help but feel that you are avoiding my question. Let’s not rehash CUNY all over again. I am familiar with your basis of objection to many of these projects, but you are not answering my question. There has been a lot of development in LIC in the past decade. Which development stands out in your mind as an example of a project that did not infringe on the “quality of life” in LIC?
Again the reason I ask is because you said that you favor development that does not infringe on the quality of life. Can you cite a LIC development that you were in favor of?
#98 new threads coming on Monday. everyone needs a break from time to time. :) and this is a really interesting and important discussion actually. Toxic remediation is a major issue for our community.
107, does it need to be black and white? But ok since you ask. Arris from my perspective and with little knowledge of what folks have trouble with seems to be built in an area and in a way where nothing was diminished and something was improved. Badge, which is much closer to home seems to be non-intrusive, conforming and with a design that blends with what is there. The newest East Coast has nice design lines though I couldn’t cough up the money for an apt there. I like the park-like terrace on the 9th Fl of is that also an East Coast? Sorry I’m not good with the names. I like the Food Cellar. There are no new businesses along Vernon that I have a problem with at present even though I support the 500 foot rule when it applies. The Duane Reade doesn’t thrill me but I think Vernon Pharmacy will survive. I love Gantry Park.
Look, I keep trying to explain that I know ‘quality of life’ is subjective. In part, there is nostalgia for a quieter more intimate neighborhood, but in a more serious and forward thinking vein it’s about desiring a transition to the new which does not completely steam roller over the old. Houses for example used to be bought by people who wanted to live in them and often improve them. Nowadays every property is a potential knock down and redevelop at a larger scale site. The result is everyone wants in on that - except for a few of us backward types - and this puts further pressure on all the quaint things that attracted folks here in the first place. I feel there could be a more natural and sustainable development but I’m not gonna go there because you will start asking “what does that mean?”
This is a long, long discussion that perhaps has no resolution but I certainly don’t have the view that development is all bad.
As 109, the LIQCity name is incorrect. It got placed there automatically by a cookie? Is there a way to fix this buggy behavior?
I know that this is a variation on the theme of this thread; but while reading all of these posts, the following came to mind.
All of these polluted sites everywhere, which are in need of remediation, are due to the lack of foresight, or knowledge, and/or the desire to do the right thing when the knowledge was available, by those who came before us. This is what they left the succeeding generations. This is why it is so important that the current generations do the right thing, and not leave behind more stuff , to be remediated by those who will exist in the decades and centuries to come.
Regulations are in place for good reason. They didn’t exist way back when. People bitch and moan (and rightly so) about all the toxic stuff that endangers us today, which was left behind yesterday. Those who bitch and moan today, and who might be in positions of power, to be able to prevent tommorrow’s generations from looking back on us with the same irreverence, should do so, instead of skimping for reasons of profit.
I’m not relating or comparing this to any specific debate/argument in this thread, but just voicing what I believe to be basic common sense and consideration.
Charlie.
Yes agreed, this is a discussion that has no resolution especially on a blog, but it is good to hear your view even though I do not agree with all of it. I’m still confused by what some of it all means, but please also consider that just as much as you do not like the feeling of trying to steam roll over the old, there are those of us who do not want nostalgia crammed down our throats. Many were attracted to living here by the changes that are happening here and we want more of the same. Neither group has exclusive right to what becomes of LIC. Somehow we must find a way to co-exist and that does not mean that things should be put into a time capsule and freeze development. Reasonable efforts to develop should not be hindered by a desire for nostalgia. The will of a small group should not be imposed on the larger group.
By the way nice post by Charlie in #111
#109 Maybe you would have a different opinion if you lived next to the Badge building. Once all the noise, dust and debris ended we are left with 8 stories with balconies looking down on us. Less light, more noise and less privacy. We have no choice in the matter except to get used to it.
112, Nostalgia was mentioned once and only in passing and then the post moved on to the more serious concerns so you shouldn’t be so hung up on that. I’m also not aware of any attempts to cram nostalgia down anyone’s throat.
My experience has been that it’s more often the young newcomers who push the idea that the so-called old neighborhood has to get out of the way for so-called progress. It’s a strange feeling for those of us who have been here for the long haul and will still be here after the condos have flipped and many of these vocal people have moved on.
I think all people want is that their opinions not be so quickly judged and boxed into convenient stereotypical molds and especially that their activism not be treated as having some sort of bad intent.
Yes, I agree that charlie’s post was very good. He expanded on what I meant when I briefly wrote that “the Pepsi Plant was built back in the day when buildings went up on sites with no regard as to what lay beneath their developments”.
#112, you say
“My experience has been that it’s more often the young newcomers who push the idea that the so-called old neighborhood has to get out of the way for so-called progress. It’s a strange feeling for those of us who have been here for the long haul and will still be here after the condos have flipped and many of these vocal people have moved on.”
You have to know that if that was phrased the other way around, you would blow a gasket. I don’t think if matters how long you have been here. You could have lived here for a hundred years and if your ideas stink, they stink. Likewise, if you just moved here and have good ideas, then great. By the way, my family has been here for over 3 generations but I admit that sometimes my ideas for the neighborhood suck.
Sorry, meant #114.
116, of course you are right but you did not perhaps notice it was in response to people jumping on the word nostalgia. Unfortunately some people did not catch the nuance and instead jumped on that as the only reason people want to preserve the neighborhood.
The simple point regarding ‘quality of life’ that seems to so baffle 107 is this. There are people who have lived a relatively quiet almost rural life here and this includes the real old timers and the first wave of gentrification - those of us who came in the late 70’s and 80’s. The neighborhood maintained its character as it grew. The present situation where buildings that are way larger in scale are plunked down among the smaller residential enclaves has given us frequent loud parties that go into the early hours of the morning, less light, less privacy, more strained parking, denser platforms on the subway, more sewer back ups, more dog sh*t on the sidewalk, and continual calls and people showing up at our door who want to buy our home. There are blocks that have been under continual construction for several years. Our homes get filled with dust. The block gets filled with debris. We are woken often before legal hours by cranes backing up and workers banging and chattering. And some homes have sustained serious damage.
So preservation is not an abstract concept. It’s a physical reality where we are trying to preserve the time and space we call life. with all due respect, I just think that this is not easily grasped by those fortunate enough not to experience these things.
118, I agree with most of your characterization and found myself feeling slightly depressed after reading it. But having lived in LIC most of my life, I don’t know how you can say we ever enjoyed a “relatively quiet almost rural life here.” Be careful, because you are inviting the hysterical pro-development fringe to jump down your throat and ignore anything else you have to say and portray you as some kind of backward yahoo. Still, I think you are quite correct in how you describe the effects of the constant disrupt
It’s definitely been smelling funky around there. No doubt.